Jane, It’s been a few years since the last Clara Vine novel was published. Can you tell is us about the character – and what inspired you to return to her story now in The Judgement of Stars?
The original inspiration for Clara Vine came from several memoirs by women who visited Germany in the early years of the Third Reich and reported back on the gradual evolution of Nazi-ism. The slow creep of fascism, and the stifling of dissent, is an enduring interest of mine. As an actress at Babelsberg, Clara is able to witness the way Goebbels used Culture, both films and books, to accustom a whole society to authoritarian behaviour. An actress is an ideal spy; used to existing under the radar and able to conceal her true thoughts and feelings. Also, the glamour of Babelsberg gave Third Reich actresses access to the higher echelons, so Clara can mingle with the VIPs and hear their thoughts and feelings. After five books, I’ve longed to go back to the Clara Vine series, and I’m delighted that I finally have.
In this novel, we finally delve into Clara’s Jewish ancestry, meeting her mother’s side of the family for the first time. Why did you decide to explore this aspect of her identity now, and how does it reshape our understanding of who Clara is?
Clara’s twin secrets – being both a Jewish woman and a spy – are key to her predicament in the series. She is acting the part of an Aryan alongside the very architects of Jewish persecution, coming into frequent contact with Goebbels, Heydrich and all the wives of the senior men. Yet nine years in Germany has taught her to repress her true self very effectively, so that when her Jewish cousin is arrested, and she is asked to help him, she is prompted to re-evaluate not only her personal peril, but also her longtime moral decision to hide her Jewish identity.
This book introduces a second protagonist, Gisela Vogel, a woman struggling in an abusive marriage while trying to support her best friend. What drew you to tell her story alongside Clara’s? And will we be seeing more of her in the future?
In all the novels, I like to examine the lives of ordinary women in the Third Reich. Gisela is a middle-class girl who has made the mistake of eloping with a stage magician and moving to Berlin. I loved writing Gisela because she ends up working for Goebbels’ Astrology Unit, which is unintentionally hilarious, involving as it does every kind of fringe lunacy like magic, astrology, and Ice Theory, that the Nazis were suckers for.
The novel moves from 1942 Berlin to 1937 Vienna. What attracted you to Vienna as a setting for the flashback?
Location wise, I’ve always been in love with Berlin, but Vienna is a far more romantic setting. It has long been a crucible of history, and in the twentieth century it was the birthplace of epoch-making figures in psychology, philosophy, art and music. It has also been an important nexus for espionage, and the beauty of its buildings and ancient cobbled streets makes it intensely atmospheric.
When researching real figures, such as Hedy Lamarr, how did you approach blending fact with fiction? What creative freedoms did you take in adapting elements for the characters?
Hedy Lamarr, who later became an A List Hollywood actress, usefully wrote a memoir narrating her incredible elopement from Austria. In the memoir she says two people helped her escape her husband’s clutches and she will never reveal their names. So it occurred to me that Clara Vine could be part of that story. I do use many real historical figures in the novels, and I always try to keep to ideas they have already expressed in memoirs or letters because it makes the story that much more authentic.
Clara’s big acting project is the Nazi propaganda film The Sinking of the Titanic. What made you include this bizarre episode in the Third Reich’s cinematic history?
It was irresistible! With the Battle for the Atlantic going on, Goebbels decided that nothing could be better to raise morale than to remind Germans of a great British shipping disaster. Yet even though he spent money like water, the movie was its own kind of disaster, dogged by every possible technical hitch. It was eventually torpedoed by Goebbels himself, who had the director murdered and banned the movie from the screen.
There is a debate about whether Wilhelm Canaris was a hero in disguise or simply a man trying to ensure his own survival. How much has that influenced your characterisation of him?
I think the British view at the time – that Canaris was the best of the bunch – holds water, even if the full extent of his co-operation with the Allies is still to be determined. His active opposition to Hitler is well known; he was directly involved in both the 1938 and 1939 coup attempts and was instrumental in getting five hundred Dutch Jews to safety in 1941, some by giving them papers as ‘Abwehr agents’ which allowed them to leave the country safely. In March 1943, he flew to Smolensk to plan Hitler’s assassination with conspirators and later that year he met secretly with Stewart Menzies, chief of British Secret Intelligence Service, and William J. Donovan, head of America’s Office of Strategic Services, at Santander in Spain. He offered them a plan for a ceasefire, with Hitler to be eliminated or handed over. Roosevelt declined to negotiate and Canaris’s peace offer was rejected. The fact that Hitler had Canaris hanged after reading his private diaries is also significant.
[Spoiler alert] Clara’s past with Leo Quinn was an important part of earlier novels, as well as her working through his death. In this book, it’s revealed he’s still alive. What led you to bring Leo back into Clara’s life, and how do you see his role in her character arc?
Leo Quinn is the British consular official who first meets and falls in love with Clara in 1933. Refusing his proposal of marriage, because it would involve giving up espionage and returning to England, proves that Clara is able to put duty ahead of her emotions. Leo returns to Berlin twice to find her, before in 1939 he is involved in a border skirmish and believed dead. Even so, in 1942, Clara still can’t let go of her feelings for him. Nor could I, so I decided to let him live.
The Clara Vine series explores the inner lives of women in Nazi Germany. Do you feel that women’s perspectives in wartime remain underrepresented in historical fiction?
When I started writing Clara Vine, the lives of German women in the Third Reich were hugely underexplored. But in the last decade there has been an awakening of interest in the domestic and social side of wartime Germany. The lives of women are so important – not only because they are the majority, but because their attitudes affected the rise of the Nazis and their support during the war. Hitler said the ‘most important German citizen is the Mother’ because he recognised their importance in conditioning the next generation. Yet, as well as ordinary women, I’m also fascinated by the lives of the VIP wives and the profound political influence they had on their men.
Can readers expect a seventh Clara Vine novel?
I would love to write another one and already have the plot!
Jane Thynne is a bestselling writer and the author of The Judgement of Stars, published by Sharpe Books.
